Leen Gorissen: Building Our Future on Natural Intelligence

EPISODE 31

 

[INTRODUCTION]

 

[00:00:06] ANNOUNCER: You are listening to 10,000 Swamp Leaders, leadership conversations that explore adapting and thriving in a complex world with Rick Torseth and guests.

 

[00:00:19] RT: Hey everybody, this is Rick Torseth, and this is 10,000 Swamp Leaders, the podcast where we have guests on who’ve made some decisions to lead in some very complex and difficult situations in the world. It’s also a place where we can kind of create a container and a conversation to understand what they’ve learned from those choices and the work they’re doing and what ideas they might have for others of us, who are trying to do the same kind of work.

 

Today, it’s my privilege to have a person I met in Paris, Leen Gorissen. We were in Paris in May for a conference and you spoke at a conference, and I remember thinking, this is a woman who exemplifies what the podcast is all about, you’ve made a decision, you’ve raised your hand, and you’re choosing to lead on the very complex and very interesting topic. Natural intelligence.

 

[INTERVIEW]

 

[00:01:07] RT: So first of all, welcome to the podcast. I want to welcome you get your voice in here. So, welcome to the show, to the swamp, I would say.

 

[00:01:13] LG: Thank you, Rick. I’m happy to be here.

 

[00:01:16] RT: Okay. I’m going to give people a little bit of your background, and then you’re going to have an opportunity to clean me up here, if you don’t mind. So, you got a PhD in biology, you are the founder of your organization Centre4NI, which I know means for natural intelligence, you specialize in ecology, transition science, I don’t know what that is, regenerative design, and bio inspired innovation.

 

You are the writer and owner of what, I think, is a fabulous book, Building the Future of Innovation on millions of years of Natural Intelligence. I’m going to tell people now, I’m going to tell them at the end, this is a great book, and I really encourage people to pick it up. So, let me get you in here. So, what do you want people to know about you that I haven’t covered yet that you think’s important for the conversation we’re going to have?

 

[00:02:04] LG: Thank you for the introduction. And maybe to add something, I used to work for a scientific Institute in Belgium that focuses on sustainability, the Flemish Institute for Technological Research, and my work there was to focus on everything that’s needed to help us make the transition to a more sustainable world. So, for almost 10 years, I was a researcher and a research coordinator, investigating what is needed to make this transition to a more sustainable world.

 

While the work is of course, valuable, after 10 years, I was disappointed with the impacts, because we keep reinforcing the old value logic, and it’s like we keep using old methods to solve new problems. So, we’re running in circles, and the impact, the change that really needs to happen for us, well, just didn’t happen, even within a scientific research institute, who has a mission of promoting sustainability. So, that got me thinking, why is it that we’re not creating the impact that we need? Why do we keep reinforcing old school solutions, which we know by now are not what the world needs? And that kind of helped me see that the way we think it is actually a big barrier for progress in this transition. And that brought me back to my roots, because I worked in this Institute for Technology, so it became very apparent that most people still view the world as a machine.

 

So, this industrial machine logic is actually standing in the way of us making real progress and making the changes that we need, and so that brought me back to my roots because I’m a biologist by training. The world is not a machine. It’s a living system, a living and ever evolving system. I think it was Einstein who said, “You cannot solve the problems of today by using the same thinking that created them.” So, we need another kind of thinking. Living systems thinking, understanding the way that life works, and that’s actually what brought me to writing this book on natural intelligence, because there is an intelligence behind the success of the natural world threats. The organisms that have been around for millions of years despite major upheaval, despite continuous change and disruption, they know what is needed to stay alive for such a long time. So, can we tap into that intelligence if we understand what it is, and can we then use that intelligence in the way that we try to tackle the problems that we are facing with today?

 

[00:05:42] RT: So, thank you for that. That’s a much more comprehensive introduction. You have a line, I think it’s in the book, but maybe it’s on the website, probably both places, but I love it. It says, “Forget AI. What the world needs most today is NI or natural intelligence.” There’s probably a lot of people here who were like me in Paris in May, who had not heard the phrase natural intelligence, at least contextually placed the way you’re doing it. So, would you give people an understanding of what you mean by natural intelligence and why it matters? And what why you dedicated what you’re up to about this?

 

[00:06:20] LG: Yeah. So, if you look at the success of the natural world, the species that are still here, so that did not end up as fossils, then you can see that there is an intelligence that actually kept them alive for 3.8 billion years. And that intelligence is what I call natural intelligence, because it represents life’s logic for safeguarding the success of future generations. And this natural intelligence starts from the basic foundation, actually the ground rule of life on Earth, which is that life generates conditions that are conducive, or beneficial for future life. So, in a nutshell, natural intelligence is the art and science of surviving and thriving on a continuously changing planet with limited resources.

 

[00:07:18] RT: First of all, I will say, but the book for me is one, it gave me hope that there was a way forward for people like me who aren’t scientific to actually think and then, therefore, some directions in some ways to focus my attention and actions, which I think for a lot of us is probably what’s missing and I’m going to say that the book opens that door for people. One of the things that I was struck by was, and I know regeneration, you want to get into regeneration here. I was struck by the story of the wolves. Because I think if I’m – unless I’m way off here, I think that’s a good parable for getting into the regeneration conversation. So, would you share with people this incredibly cool story about wolves?

 

[00:08:01] LG: Yes. It’s such an amazing example of the power of regeneration. So, for, I think the past 100 years, Yellowstone has been the void of wolves. We’ve hunted and killed them all because well, wolves eat our livestock, and so humans got rid of all the wolves. But because there was no apex predator anymore in the ecosystem, the ecosystem started to degenerate, to degrade, because there were no wolves to control the elk populations. Elk are these huge deer species.

 

So, when there are no predators, they can roam about freely and eat everything that they want, right? And so, there were more and more elks, who overgrazed the ecosystem. Young trees never got a chance to grow because the elks ate them and overgrazed the system. And you could see that because of this long period of 100 years, that there was no balance in the ecosystem because wolves had been taking out, that the ecosystem was degrading and degrading and becoming less healthy, less vital, there were less biodiversity, so species richness was down. And even the hunters who tried to control the elk populations could not change this process of degeneration and degradation.

 

So, at one point, ecologist decided, let’s try something new, let’s bring back wolves. And so, they reintroduced a few handful of wolves back into the ecosystem. The most remarkable thing happened. In 10 years’ time, you could see that the ecosystem had shifted from a process of degeneration, where the health was in decline to a process of regeneration where the ecosystem became healthier and wealthier. There were more species more vital, there was more life. So, regeneration, in its essence, is a process of becoming more and doing more.

 

Now, what has happened when they reintroduced the wolves, it was not so much the fact that the wolves killed the deer, but the fact that the wolves changed the behavior of the deer, of the elks. They started avoiding certain places, and they stayed less long in the same place. So, the elks actually shifted their role from being over grazers to being pruners. Now, everyone who has a garden knows that if you prune trees, that they actually produce more fruits, and nuts, and so forth. So, the role of the deer shifted from being a degrader to being a regenerator, and they actually stimulate it, more foods being brought back into the system.

 

Also, because the wolves roam around, the trees were able to grow back in five years’ time. In a period of five years, the trees grow in heights incredibly. So, when the trees came back with them came more foods like nuts and berries. So, the birds came back, the insects came back. If the mammals came back, like little mouse, or little mice and rabbits, and so forth. And of course, that attracted more predators, and the bears came back, the beavers came back, and the beavers reinforced the positive impact of the wolves. Because with their beaver dams, they created new niches, so more fish and amphibians could come back to the ecosystem.

 

In a period of 10 years’ time, ecologist actually observed that the wolves have changed the course of the river. So, the way that the river runs through Yellowstone was changed, because of the impact of the wolves, processes of erosion had stopped. So, the river became more sets in its course, and it had more ripple sections, which again provided more habitat for more wildlife, and more biodiversity to come in. So, in 10 years’ time, the wolves not only impacted the ecosystem, but they changed the geography of the land. And for me, that is a really beautiful example of what can happen when we shift our roles and our processes from degradation, degeneration to regeneration. And it also gives me hope, because a lot of people say that the transition to a healthier and more sustainable world will take a very long time.

 

Well, for me, the wolves show that that’s not always necessary in 10 years’ time, they completely shifted the landscape. And it also shows that we don’t need to be with many, because it was only a couple of handful of wolves who had this radically big impact on the ecosystem and the landscape for the better. So, we don’t need the great numbers and we don’t need a lot of time to really make the shift to a healthier and more vital and more sustainable world. So, I was very happy when I came across that research, because it gave me hope, and it also gave me an example to invite when I was at the Research Institute to invite engineers into living systems examples, because they’ve been trained to think in machines and this machine logic is so hardwired in our brain that most of us don’t even know it anymore. But if you invite them into this exercise, how can wolves change rivers, then they see how living systems actually operate, and which principles are important. And since earth is one big living system, if we adopt these principles and work with these principles of living systems, we can really fast forward to the essence of what needs to change.

 

[00:15:07] RT: I’m struck by then, and you sort of getting here, but I want to be specific about it. So, you had this experience, you saw this research, you saw the pace at which a small group of wolves could actually change for the better ecosystem. How transferable is that? And to the extent it is transferable, how do you, in your work, or me who for which this isn’t to work, what are the lessons that we can take away, that we can actually put into action in our own world that have maybe not the same dramatic effect, but the beginnings of some consequential effect?

 

[00:15:49] LG: Yeah. Good question. Yeah, that’s one that I dive deep into when I work with companies as well. Well, one of the important lessons of the wolf example is the importance of indirect effects. So, we’ve been trained to think white linear A, leads to B, leads to C. But if you look at the natural world living systems is actually non-linearity that’s rules, right? So, the indirect effects are often more important than the direct effects. It was not so much the killing of the deer that had this dramatic change in the ecosystem, it was changing the behavior of the deer. When we set up business models and organizations, we always look at the direct effects, and we’re blind for the indirect effects.

 

So, we have to become more aware of all the indirect effects that we are creating with the products that we are producing, with the business models that we are sending out in the world, with our value creation logic. We have to think of also, the indirect effects. And that is really a good one to help companies common to this living systems thinking. So, if you have an innovation, what are all the indirect effects? Another very important lesson or a way that you can also use this example of the wolves, is to talk about roles. For instance, I did the exercise of the wolves with an architectural firm, new group and hiring, with everyone in the firm, we did the wolf exercise, and then my question to them was, how can you as architects be a wolf in your ecosystem and what does that entail?

 

Because if you dive deeper into the ecological example, you see that actually what wolves do is they restore balance back into the ecosystem. So, one thing that architects can do is restore balance back into our living worlds, because we’ve over cemented our living worlds. We’ve designed nature out. We’re actually replacing life with dead zones for traffic and for car parking, and so forth. So, what if architects change their role of creating buildings, to a role of restoring balance back? And the buildings that they design are the byproducts of that process. So, that’s one of the things that we can learn from the wolf example.

 

[00:18:54] RT: This is a piece that I’d love personally, to have you expand on a little bit, which is you say, forget to struggle, the long-term evolutionary success depends more on snuggle for survival. So, I don’t know. I wanted to substitute nudge for snuggle, but that could be completely not relatable to this. But what do you mean, because it strikes me that there’s also a point of action, a place where people could actually do something. So, what are you speaking to when you use that description snuggle?

 

[00:19:25] LG: Yeah. So, for a long time, biologists or biology has focused on competition, right? If you look at any nature documentary, you can see a fight between two bulls, survival of the fittest kind of view, but that’s only one side of the coin. Because for instance, if you look at your own body, it would not be there if there was no collaboration. Your genes collaborate, your chromosomes collaborate, your muscles collaborate, everything in your body collaborates with each other. So, leave out collaboration, and you and I would not be here. So, collaboration is actually much more vitally important for evolution, than we gave it credit for in the past.

 

Well, because of this focus on the struggle for survival, research has focused a lot on competition, predation, and all those models. And those have been copied into our economic mindsets and economic worlds. The Selfish Gene, the book, The Selfish Gene is one of the best examples of that. But genes are not selfish. They’re self-promoting and genes have to collaborate with a whole bunch of other genes to create something.

 

So, when I talk about the snuggle for survival, I refer to the fact that collaboration is much more important than competition. If you actually look from that point of view to evolution, then you will see that actually, competition is not even a long-term strategy. It’s only a short-term strategy. And it always has to do with either a mate or resources, but it cannot exist over the long term. Because only those organisms that create benefits for each other, that go into what we call as biologists and mutualism, where there’s a win-win situation for both, only those can survive in the long term.

 

[00:21:43] RT: The notion of restoring balance, not just as a concept, but as an actual practice. And then therefore, so the conversation with the architects sort of takes me to another place here, which is, and you sort of have gotten to this in exchange we had before, the relationship for sure. I guess the potential for greater regeneration being somewhat determined by the quality of leadership, the quality of people who have authority and resources to bring to bear one way or the other. I mean, we saw a crude macro version of this in the closing days of COP just as last week about which countries should be benefiting from resources in order to deal with things that were produced by larger countries. So, I’m curious, what’s that interrelationship between how regeneration can be activated and in people and the role of leadership to produce that?

 

[00:22:41] LG: Yeah. So, if you look at the world today, then you can see that we have destabilized our life support system to such a degree that the world will become very turbulent and volatile in the next decades. And the only way to reverse this process of degradation that we have actually promoted, is to regenerate life back on Earth. And if you look at current leadership models, they just are inadequate to do this. And they’re also inadequate to lead organizations through the troubled waters that we are going to find ourselves in a few years. But once you know how life works, you will see that sustainability is the byproduct of regenerative value creation, leaving the planet better off than before, and that’s kind of asks for a new take on leadership as well. A leadership that actually can promote these processes of regenerative value creation. A model that sees organizations not as machines, and people not as human resources, but more a model that views the world as living systems, and that looks at leadership as a role to help us move back to this balance that we need for us, if we want to stay in the long haul.

 

So, what you said, leadership is not so much about what we do. It’s about who we become. It is indeed the quality of our being. I think that’s also something that you can see from the wolves. They have this quality of being that makes the other species change their behavior. And so, I think that’s the new direction for leadership, regenerative leadership is really focused on this inner quality. Not so much on the doing because now, all focus is leaders have to manage huge piles of people to do certain things. But I think that model is going to become more and more unstable in the future. And I think that it’s the quality of being that can actually put people into motion and help people achieve, also a higher quality of being, because that will be the only way that we can actually achieve the transition. It needs to start with the way we think, but also the way that we are. We have to become more to be able to do more.

 

So, that is indeed why I think regenerative leadership starts from the inside out. But once you achieve this quality, then your impacts can be much higher. And I’ve seen it in the mentors that I have. I took a course on regenerative developments from Regenesis. And you can really see that the quality of being from our mentors is so high that they can actually help us regenerate our own thinking, and they are able to lift up the potential so we can become more and do more. I think that is what future leadership should be focusing on. Because every human can become more and can do more. That’s how nature designed us. We are evolutionary beings, we have been designed to evolve, but our current colonial industrial system has actually done the opposites. It tries to keep a small. We just have to do and perform. It’s not about development, and it’s not about becoming more in order so that you can achieve more and do more things that you can handle more complexity, because that I think will be crucial in the next decades. The world is really fast forwarding to turbulence and unstability. And so, leaders will have to develop this skill or this ability of handling complexity much better if they are to lead the organization in such troubled waters.

 

[00:27:33] RT: Okay, so I’m going to put you on the spot here then. So, you are getting, because of your good work with your book and the work you’re doing, you’re getting invited into these types of organizations who have at least begun to consider conceptually, what you’re talking about here. But as you will know, there’s a big difference between grasping a concept and thinking it’s really great, and actually doing the hard work to actually do what you’re talking about here to become that, so that you can foster more of that in your organization, or your community.

 

So, what are you learning about that actual work that is required to evolve from the traditional form of hierarchy and command and control, et cetera, to the descriptions in the form that you’re talking about here’s a regenerative leader. What are you learning, lessons learned, struggles? Because I imagine people out there, they’re with you in this conversation, and they’re also thinking, how do I start to get to the place you’re describing? What’s the work of evolving myself to that place? And so, what have you learned in working with these people and helping them that works and maybe stuff that doesn’t work?

 

[00:28:50] LG: Good question. Well, first thing that I’ve learned is that our old value logic and logic of leadership has been so deeply ingrained in our brains that it’s very hard to get it out there. So, what we try to do, for instance, if we organize a retreat on regenerative leadership is to get people out of that mental space, and who is the best one to help you achieve that, that’s actually nature. So, getting people out of the boxes, out of the offices into nature. And then there are there are a lot of exercises that you can do to help them understand the thinking behind their thinking. Is that something that very little people are aware of? Or that are even questions that people don’t ask themselves? Where is my thinking coming from? Because one of the premises of regenerative development is that we can only achieve effective change if we can move up a level from the paradigm that we’re operating in, right?

 

So, first we have to become or identify which paradigm that we’re operating in. What is the value logic there? So, once we’ve identified that and made that very transparent, we can also talk about, okay, what are all the pitfalls that bring us back and reinforce the old thinking? So, one of the first things that we do if we organize a routine retreat for regenerative leadership is talk about these paradigms of change. And also become very transparent about all the pitfalls, because we have a tendency, our brain is wired for energy efficiency. And so, our brain will always go back to what we already know.

 

So, when you use the term like regeneration, regenerative value creation, people will automatically take that new worlds, that new word, and put it in an old container, or yeah, but we’re already doing that. That’s one of the big pitfalls. No, you’re not doing that. You might think you are doing that, but you’re not. And so, increasing this awareness about the thinking, behind our thinking, is very important. My mentors have lent me a really good too, and they call it thinking versus thoughting. Thoughting is downloading all thoughts, and that’s actually what the default process in your brain is.

 

Thinking is creating new thoughts. But that’s very energy – how do you say it? Consuming, right? So, that takes a lot of energy. People automatically go to thougting, but once you make that process visible, and say, “Okay, well, you’re thinking, or was it thoughting that you were doing?” That’s one step, to bring people in internal atmosphere and culture to become much more aware of the thinking behind the thinking. And that’s the first step of getting people in a regenerative mindset.

 

A second very important one is shifting from a focus on fixing problems, and creating solutions to working with potential. Because we have a tendency to – when we see a problem to immediately start doing things without thinking it through on a really deep level, and so we’ve actually designed this process where we come up with a solution for one problem that creates three or five or 10 new problems elsewhere. So, we’re stuck in this vicious circle of problem solving, and when you start from potential, what is this organization, what is the potential that it’s going to achieve in the worlds? What can this business model potentially create in the world, then you kind of set yourself outside of that vicious circle. And you can come up with whole new ways of collaborating, of setting up your value, creation process, and so forth.

 

[00:33:39] RT: So, I know it, you don’t have to hear me say this. But this is hard work, to change your thinking, from thoughting to thinking for example, your habits, your tendency to want to go fast and efficient versus get mired in the problem and be more diagnostic and more curious. We’re really not wired too well, for that kind of – on a broad scale. So, it’s encouraging that you’re doing this, and I’m struck by digging around your own business model. Would you explain to people your business model? You know what I’m referring to, I think. I pulled it off your website. So, you know where I’m going with this. So, tell people what you’re up to in your own business, which is to say, where you’re putting your money where your mouth is?

 

[00:34:31] LG: Yeah. So yeah, I tried to bring the theory into practice myself, because well, that’s where all the learning is, and also, integrity is important for me. So, try to bring the kind of things that I’m sharing also into practice. And so, that was why I decided I have to come up with a new business model, one that is aligned with the way life works, and one that leaves the world better off than before, just like the whales do, and wolves do and all these other incredible survival years do.

 

And so, what my business model needs to do is change the logic of value creation from degradation to regeneration. One of the first things that we said that we wanted to do with our business model is it has to produce oxygen. So, part of the revenue that we raise is directly invested in trees, which we ourselves will plant, so I’m not outsourcing it. I have to plant them myself. Why is that important? Because spending time in nature is also good for your health. So, I’m regenerating my own health if I’m planting my own trees.

 

But if I want to plant trees, of course, I need to have time to do so. And so, of course, this is just work in progress. But it has been working for the past six years since we started. So, my business model is not just for profits. Of course, I have to make a living, I need to be able to live from it. But that’s just one thing. It also needs to create life. So, it’s for life. We’re not just planting any trees, we’re planting food forests, based on the way that nature designs ecosystems, which will produce a lot of food not only for us, but also for all the other animals.

 

So, a bit imitating what the wolves did when they returned to Yellowstone, right? Because when they returned there, the ecosystem was able to generate much more food. And food, of course, gives life to many more other species. So, our business model has to be for life, next to for profits. And one of the incomes that we want to achieve also is time. So, I don’t want to earn money, but I also want to earn time.

 

[00:37:05] RT: Hold it. Let’s make sure people hear what you just said there. Another form of income is time. Brilliant.

 

[00:37:13] LG: Yeah. Because if you really look at life, from a biological point of view, the only thing that you have which is limited, is time, the time that you’re here on this planet. And so, being able to spend that time in a meaningful way, to do the things that you feel that you must do. So, it’s very close to your essence, for me that is really invaluable. So, my business model not only has to provide money, but time for me to, for instance, plant trees, or do other things that I feel I need to do like studying, I studied this regenerative practitioner series, because I gave myself the time to do so. And now, we have set up our business model so that we can spend ideally 50% of our time doing the things that we need to do, to feel healthy, to regenerate ourselves. And then we will become more and be able to do more, which will translate in better quality and the other 50% of time that we are actually working for clients. So, that is the way that I’ve set up the business model.

 

[00:38:32] RT: I’m making notes to that from myself. Time is compensation model. How did I get this far before I had to hear that?

 

Alright, so I want to remind people that when we’re done, we will post some links in the show notes for your website, and the books and those things, and probably few other links you have that I don’t have now, so people can follow on and this. But this is a podcast about leading and you’ve been talking about a little bit. And you are leading. So, I have sort of questions from that angle then, because as we discussed, there are people who are listening who are looking for ideas and things that they can learn from elders who come before them. So, one question is, what did you learn about yourself doing this work that surprised you?

 

[00:39:16] LG: Well, I guess one of the big aha moments was when I took this course on regenerative development when they showed the importance of essence. An essence-based thinking. They say every living organism has its own essence. And that essence has to come out for it to flourish and that’s really helped me focus. I already knew that what I was about, I’m a biologist, and I have this knowledge of the R&D system of the business world. So, linking those two worlds, translating, helping businesses see how living systems operate to help them perform better in the future. But then, there are so many things that you can do, and I’m interested in many things.

 

But this essence, focus really helped me to keep focused on okay, what is it that I need to do, and to also keep out the things that are not so closely related to my own essence, and that focus makes it much easier to say no, to certain things, even though you think they’re very interesting. And that also, it’s a source of willpower once you can tap into that essence. So, you are not so struck by resistance, or turbulence, or things that don’t go as planned. Because you know what you are and what you need to do. And so, it has to do with tapping into that deeper level of willpower, and not only willpower, but actually wellbeing and happiness.

 

So, I’m not so disrupted anymore, like, for instance the COP negotiations, while from a biological point of view, that was like a complete failure. But well, in the past, when I wasn’t so essence focused, I would really spent countless nights, sleepless over that, like, “Oh, my God, people are not seeing it.” And yeah, it makes you depressed. Seeing that so many people still don’t know the state of the world, they’re still sleepwalking. But then once you find your essence and your willpower, of course, it still saddens me to see those things. But I know what I have to do and I know that it’s not about what I do, per se, in activities, but in who have I become, so also, therefore, the 50% of time to really developing that inner center, power center of will. And so that does not destabilize me so much anymore. And it doesn’t disappoint me also so much anymore. Because I know also, for instance, life always builds from the bottom up.

 

I’m actually not putting so much hope in the top down initiatives. I think it will come from each and every one of us, because every human is a leader. You just have different resources and different conditions in which you can lead, but every human is a leader who can do fantastic things in the local condition and context that they are in, and create a positive impact. So, yeah, that really helped me to center, to have focus, and not be so destabilized by what’s going on in the world.

 

[00:43:08] RT: Yeah, so let me ask you one last question. So, as we sit here, November 2022, what’s ahead for you, do you think? When you sit here in this place, knowing what you’ve accomplished and the immediate stuff you have in front of you, but when you cast yourself out a few years, what do you think’s ahead for you in the future?

 

[00:43:29] LG: So hopefully, I will be part of a healthy, productive food forest ecosystem, because this week, we will receive a batch of trees that we’re going to plant and in a few years, I hope they have matured, are producing lots of food not only for us, but for all other species that we need on a healthy stable planet. So, I really hope to see myself as part of this living, thriving ecosystem, which can actually be a bit like a bank, right? The return on investment as all these babies and fledglings that are reproduced and that can disperse into new ecosystems and help restore and regenerate those other ecosystems. Beyond that, I don’t think I have a clear picture in my mind of what the future will be. I know from transition science and from my biological background that the future is going to be very, very turbulent the next decades. So yeah, I don’t know what and how that is going to impact me, but yeah, you can only navigate it by being inventive, creative and resilient, right?

 

[00:44:53] RT: And regenerative?

 

[00:44:53] LG: And regenerative, of course. Yeah. Most stuff, regenerative. Yeah, most of all.

 

[00:45:00] RT: Okay. So, Leen, thank you so much for making time now that I know time has got a value to you that’s different than me. I’m just honored that you carved out a little bit of it for 10,000 swamp leaders. So, thank you for doing that. We will put the representative resources and links and stuff in the show notes so people can find you online, they can find – you have a blog that you write to, you have the book, and I suspect that people will probably want to run you down for varying things. So, we’ll make sure that they can get access to that. So, thank you very much for being with us. It’s been a pleasure.

 

[00:45:36] LG: Thank you, Rick. It was a pleasure being here. So, thank you for your interest in my work.

 

[00:45:41] RT: Have a good one.

 

[00:45:42] LG: Okay, you too. Bye-bye.

 

[OUTRO]

 

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