Jole Berlage-Buccellati: Integral Coaching for Highly Sensitive People

EPISODE 25

 

[INTRODUCTION]

 

[00:00:06] ANNOUNCER: You are listening to 10,000 Swamp Leaders, leadership conversations that explore adapting and thriving in a complex world with Rick Torseth and guests.

 

[INTERVIEW]

 

[00:00:20] RT: Hi, everybody. This is Rick Torseth and this is 10,000 Swamp Leaders, the podcast where we talk with people who’ve made some decisions in their life and in their profession to come into the swamp and help people deal with complexity in all its manifestations.

 

Today is a great pleasure. I have a friend and colleague, actually somebody that I’ve worked with, Jole Berlage-Buccellati. It’s a lot there, so I hope I’m getting it right, is with me today. She’s actually a jack of all trades and she’s not going to like this. Probably, she does lots of things and we can talk about why I think that’s important in the context of the swamp leaders. She’s an integral coach for highly sensitive people. She developed the Pilates method, which I did not know about, but we want to find out about that a little bit. And she is a performance coach for highly sensitive people. So Jole, welcome to the podcast.

 

[00:01:18] JBB: Thanks for having me.

 

[00:01:20] RT: Yeah, it’s great. Like I said, you’re doing a lot of different things. But they all line up for you in some particular ways to help people, and so we want to cover that. But I’m going to give you a chance right at start to tell people what you want them to know about you as a beginning point and then we’ll go from there.

 

[00:01:37] JBB: Good. Good. Thank you. I think it’s a beginning point, I could say that my work is all about empowerment, really. It’s about an integral way of empowerment. I’ll explain a little bit later what I mean by that and it’s really about helping people. I’m borrowing your word here, about people that are deeply in the swamp, because they are different from the majority of people, either by being highly sensitive, by being impasse, by being highly intelligent, or by having some sort of other problem which makes their life challenging. I mean, I know we all do, but some people sort of have a mix, which is more challenging than what other people have. And there is a huge pool there of people that are actually wonderful leaders that have a lot of insight that have a lot of visionary innovative ideas that they cannot express or they cannot find people to work with. Because it’s so bogged down by the experiences of having been marginalized, silenced or mobbed. So maybe that’s the most important thing I would like to say at the beginning.

 

[00:02:54] RT: I think the phrase highly sensitive people is going to be more unfamiliar to our listeners than it is for some people. But those three words means something very specific. Could you describe a little bit about, because clearly, some of the people listening to this are going to fit this description that you’ve gotten. They may be hearing it for the first time. What is a highly sensitive person to begin with? 

 

[00:03:19] JBB: Actually, that would be something I’d really like to know, as a feedback from the listeners, how many people will recognize that they have a lot of the traits of highly sensitive people. Because there’s just one trait really that is very well known, and that people usually get sort of marked and said, “Ah! You must be highly sensitive because…” and that is not necessarily the case. So please bear with me, because it’s a rather long list. Because a highly sensitive person, there is not a highly sensitive person, there is a complex of traits that in its combination makes a highly sensitive person. I think that’s very important to understand. Then, one also has to understand that high sensitivity is many times mixed with other things like empath, or highly intelligent or people that have ADD. I want to say that really at the beginning, because if one works with people that have highly sensitive traits, one has to be very aware of the fact what belongs where, because otherwise, you cannot help them to go into their power. Maybe if you like later on, we can go deeper into this. 

 

Highly sensitive people, the best-known trait is sensory and energetic overwhelm. That’s what most people know about highly sensitive people. People that cannot go to discotheque, or techno concert or that go to a restaurant and they feel very tired after leaving the restaurant because they just cannot filter the noise. Yeah. Or that, highly sensitive to olfactory signals. People that find life difficult in terms of sensory input, because they have – they’re wired to have a lot less filters than the majority of people. Later on, we’ll come to the positive side of that, but most people experience it and label it as negative. “Oh, you’re so sensitive. Oh, you can never go out to discotheque with me” or “You can’t eat that, and that food, and have that and that perfume.” There’s a lot of judgment, negative pejorative judgment on that energetic or highly reactive nervous system that HSPs have.

 

Another major thing is that if we talk about energy, and if you want to, we can go further down that rabbit hole later. HSPs are very, very good at sensing other people’s energy. Unfortunately, if they’re not able to distinguish between their own energy and other people’s energy, they tend to work off problems of other people. They take them on, and they think at their own and that adds to the energetic load of highly sensitive people. Another very important trait is perfectionism, which is a trap really, because highly sensitive people very often get used by narcissistic types of people in jobs and relationships, because they want to do things well. And because highly sensitive people are wired to understand, and see and perceive very complex things, which of course has to do with having less filters. The question, are you going to be inundated by complexity or are you going to be able to use it for your own good and other people’s good? Knowing that sense of, “Oh, I perceive all these things and I can use that to be innovative, to develop my vision.”

 

Again, that has two sides. Okay. Another trait that most people will recognize themselves and highly sensitive people feel very undervalued, invisible and unseen. That has to do with not fitting in when they were children, because they were wired so differently. Bear with me, I said, it’s a lot, but it’s important because it’s a complex thing and it ties in with my work. HSP have real problems with their bodies. They don’t like to connect with their bodies, they don’t like to live in their bodies, because their bodies seem to be a source of pain and struggle, of overwhelm, and not being able to do what everyone else is doing. Okay? However, once they understand that feeling, options that they have, with all the things that they can perceive is actually a gift. We’re talking about a completely different thing, okay?

 

In a way, you could look at highly sensitive people as huge antennas for I think what you would call weak signals. Okay? Once you learn to manage that, it’s a wonderful gift. But if you are not aware of that, and you don’t know how to manage overwhelm, it’s a real problem. Because it leads to disorganization, it leads to tiredness, and overwhelm panic attacks. Perfectionism, if we’re talking about performance coaching, many people that have high anxiety about performing, being it as an artist, being as a public speaker, or some people won’t even speak up in a group of friends, goes back to that mixture of perfectionism and overwhelm. Okay? And I think the –

 

[00:08:46] RT: Okay. Last one, and then I have a question for you.

 

[00:08:49] JBB: I think the last one is that, HSPs are incredibly innovative, and they have a drive, they want to change things, they’re so aware of what’s going on, that they thrive in an environment where they can be creative and innovative, where they can work in teams and where they can communicate. Now to me, that is something we desperately need in this world right now. People that can hone these skills, that know that they have this gift and they can – as we say in German, bring them to the road, go and run with it and lead. Okay? So, over to you.

 

[00:09:29] RT: As you’re going down this list, the list reminds me of people that I am friends with or know in some capacity, who to varying degrees probably would define themselves off of this list as a highly sensitive person. It also makes me think we live in a loud chaotic world, auditorily, visually, movement wise. We live in big cities a lot of times. So, I’m imagining that for somebody who is a highly sensitive person or HSP, living in that kind of physical environment, just as a place to habitate is its own challenge, independent of interfacing with specific people from time to time in the conditions that you’re describing. To what extent is the actual world environment supportive or not supportive to these people. I also suspect they’re in varying degrees of awareness about their own mix of these attributes, and how it’s affecting them.

 

Speak a little bit about the rough terrain of just being in the world if you’re in this condition, and what you’ve observed, and how people navigate it without knowing that they’re in this place before they meet you, and you start to help them.

 

[00:10:48] JBB: Yeah, thanks for giving me that opportunity because this is what my work is about. The world is chaotic, it’s loud, it’s not made for highly sensitive people at all, our western world. If we were in, you know, in other cultures, highly sensitive people would be really treasured for their traits, they would be shamans are wise leaders. But in our world, people that are successful are the ones that can cope with chaos and stress, because they don’t care about most things, they just care about their own path. They are more susceptible, whatever, you can’t be influenced by other people’s energies. What needs to happen is, if you realize that you’re constantly in overwhelm, that your nervous system is always either in fight or flight, or in the other response that you sort of withdraw. If you are ill a lot, if you cannot cope with other people. This is what happens to HSP a lot, they withdraw. Yeah, they go and live somewhere in the countryside, they have very few friends, they don’t communicate, they live with bodies. That’s what I hear a lot. They live in terror of their own body, because the body reacts to all this overwhelm. Because you have to understand that not having these filters is not necessarily mental thing, it’s a physical thing. Hopefully we get a chance to talk about that interface or what the role of the body in all of this is.

 

It’s very, very important for these people, one, to understand that being highly sensitive and I just want to stress that, it’s not a malfunction, it’s not a disorder, which is people who are at that end where they have not understood who they are, or they haven’t learned how to live with that. They really think they’re ill. They think they cannot cope with life. People get depressed, they get panic attacks, they take tons of medication, which is a pity. Once you start to realize that you are simply wired differently, there’s nothing wrong with you, but you were wired differently. Now, there’s a lot of debate on how much of that is genetic, how much is learned, how much of that is ancestral stress. There’s a lot of debate and research on that. But in the very end, once you understand that your ability to realize, to understand complexity, to work in teams, to really feel what’s going on with other people is a gift.

 

I think that’s the very first step that you go away from saying, “I have a problem, there’s something wrong with me” to say, “I’m different.” It’s about 20% of the world population. I want to say that there’s very little difference in the amount of men and women. It’s more or less par. The whole world population is about 20%, which is not that few people, it’s not 1% or 2%. I mean, it’s actually quite a high percentage of people that are wired the same way you are, so don’t lose hope. You’ll find your tribe. You find people that appreciate and want to be with you.

 

[00:14:09] RT: Okay. In the conversation we’re having here, we want to come back to this at the end about how you can help them locate their “tribe” with a little more pace than they might be if they didn’t know how to do that. That’s one way we can be helpful here, but let’s come back to that. You’ve said a nice landscape for some stuff that I want to explore here. The first question I have is, how did you get into this work? People are listening are going to ask, is Jole a highly sensitive person? Did you back into this? How did you come to be doing this?

 

[00:14:48] JBB: Well, there are two trails. Yeah, right. I had a lot of times I thought it was my disfortune to be highly sensitive, and empath and highly intended. That was a mix that for a long time in my life, put me on the side of – there’s something wrong with me. I’m always a square peg in a round hole, I cannot fit anywhere. My body is always overwhelming me, my body is a problem. At a certain point, of course with the help of other people and by just being a research minded person, I began to understand what was going on. To want first, like many other people, help myself and ground myself and just say, “Look, this is my life and I’m going to do something with it.” Not just stay inside a room and be afraid of life. I was really fed up with that. The other thing is that when I started working at a certain point, I realized that most people that came and asked for my advice, or wanted to work with me were people that fit that bill. Sometimes there are people that have other problems, but for the most parts, they were highly sensitive, or highly intelligent or very empathic.

 

Having done all that research, I couldn’t really offer something. Then that way it grew and grew into something where I can offer things that are from the wide variety of sources that look at, helping people with HSP, or people that have been mobbed, ostracized. Not just on the mental plane, but on the physical plane, and the mental plane, and the emotional plane and the spiritual plane is a package basically, is an integral way of working. Maybe we could spend some time talking about that as well, because I think that makes a huge difference. If you only work on one of those planes, you will not get very far with highly sensitive people, because they are all about complexity. As a coach, you need to be able to cover that complexity.

 

[00:17:03] RT: Okay. So this is a great segue, because there’s a few attributes and a few talents that you have that haven’t shown up here in our conversation yet. So you know, something about singing and voice, you’ve written a book called sing from your core. You know something about dancing in a robust way. Then at the outset, we mentioned that you actually develop the form of Pilates. I’m thinking of this for multiple reasons, but one of them is that you talk a lot here about people’s bodies as being a place where if they’re not comfortable with, but also the possibility that it’s a big antenna that picks up weak signals. Bring into the conversation, what you know about how your body and your experience in these creative fields have helped inform your work and how it can be beneficial to people out there listening for whom they may not be doing that as one of the ways in which they can leverage their highly sensitive attributes.

 

[00:18:00] JBB: Yeah, great question. One thing that I left out on the list, because it was already very long, was that highly sensitive people – I mean, I did mention it, but I think it’s a very important point, a very creative, okay. So you need to – if you work with highly sensitive people, you need to be able to entice them that way, you need to be able to – in German, we would say fetch them from that place. Okay? If you just give them some cognitive behavioral therapy, they will probably start yawning and walking out the door.

 

[00:18:32] RT: So would I.

 

[00:18:34] JBB: So would you. Well, I mean, talking about HSP, Rich. So it’s not just your friends, I think. But, again, I would like to go back to that integral approach, because it’s also part of the name of my site, my homepage, which is called the Integral Core Project. It has a reason. I mean, it’s a bit – it’s not a very flashy name, but it sort of represents what my work is about. That is that, that goes especially for highly sensitive people. You need to look at helping them from that integral point of view. That is that you have to understand that you cannot separate things out. You cannot separate the body, from the mind, from the spirit. And all the things that I’ve done in my life from dance, and martial arts, and getting three degrees, having a background in science, a really good background in science, and having done theater studies and having studied anthropology. All sort of allows me to look at a human being from various points of views and actually seeing what is the entrance way for this person in order to help. Is it the body? Is it more than mind? How do I foster their resiliency? What is it that they need in order to ground to arrive in themselves, to find out who they are.

 

Because if you don’t do that, if you cannot learn somebody in themselves, you can never empower them. Every person is a different mix, so I’m very happy and I feel very grateful for having had so many different studied, and looked at, and done so many different things that allows me to support people where they need it. I would like to explain the difference between integral and integrative because I think that marks my work a lot, or the way I see things. That is that the word integral is Latin. In English, you would say, to make whole, to repair, to renew, okay? Which is very different from saying, “I’m going to put somebody back together. I’m going to take.” Because that’s what integrative is, I assume there are various parts that may be connected or may not be connected, and I put them together to a whole. I find that problematic, because it’s very difficult to distinguish the spiritual from the mental, the mental from the physical. It’s all one thing. We do that on a meta level in order to get organized or to understand. But for the person that I’m working with, it’s all one. 

 

We talked about that. At another point, we talked about Daniel Grant, and about his method of brain spotting, which I use. It’s one of the brain-based methods that I use. He says something very interesting in this context. He says, “I do not believe in the mind body connection, because I do not believe there’s any mind body separation. think that explains it really well. Holistic integral is, there is no separation between mind, and body and spirit. An integral says, “Okay, there is a separation and there’s also connection.” That’s a completely different way of looking at things. If we now talk about the second word, integral core, we could say we have an emotional, and mental, physical and spiritual core. That once we’ve landed in ourselves, and we are empowered, are one. Through all my life experience, I can help people on the emotional, on the mental, on the physical, not just from the Pilates, but also from my experience with dance and my experience with trauma therapy. Also from martial arts, I took a lot from martial arts, to allow people to return to that whole, to be renewed, but on their own terms, not on my terms.

 

[00:22:45] RT: Yeah, exactly. Well, it’s their whole, right. It’s the way we came into the world and it’s our opportunity to tend to that in a nurturing way. But it’s our responsibility as well, I would think. You have, I should say, for people that in the show notes for the podcast, we will put your links to your book into your two websites that you have, so people can chase that down and understand more and contact you if that’s an appropriate move for them. Inside, though, you mentioned four key themes. You’ve touched on one of them already is resilience. But also, you talked about adaptability, about joy and about authenticity. The question I always have when I see a list of themes, because it sort of populates the world that you and I live in, is why these four when there’s 20 to choose from, for example.

 

What is it about resiliency, adaptability, joy and authenticity that you have learned, are ways in which you can help people build and be integrous in who they are? Why these four? Talk a little bit about each of them in turn, if you would.

 

[00:23:57] JBB: Okay. Yeah, gladly. So, why joy? I don’t know about you, but many people I know and me included, because I’ve had my fair share of therapy. There was no joy at all. Yeah, it was talking about my problems most of the time, and then going out of the session and being completely exhausted, because I spend so much time repeating my problem. Everything we know about neuroscience, that is the wrong way to go about it, because you will only deepen the experience of the problem inside your system.

 

[00:24:33] RT: Besides the fact that I’m just sick and tired of talking about the problem and it’s sort of like filled up to here. Enough, enough, enough.

 

[00:24:40] JBB: Yeah. So what do you want to do is you want to see exactly where do you want to go. Joy is a huge catalyst for change. Okay? That is really the one of the bases. For example, I remember one of my clients in the first appointment, I asked her, “Well, what would make you really happy? What about your life? What would give you joy? Where do you want to go?” I remember, she just looked at me and she said nothing. I was like, “Uh-oh. What was wrong here?” She said, “I’ve been in therapy for 10 years, none of the therapist ever asked me that question.” I was flabbergasted, because to me, that is the first question. Where’s your joy? What is the goal? What is it that you want to bring to this world? What’s your vision? What’s your joy? What’s the energy that will really help you to overcome whichever blockades or problems you have?

 

[00:25:37] RT: So hold on here, because I can hear people listening to this podcast saying, “Rick, you better ask her. This is a great question. You better ask her. How do I do it? How do I find joy?” So because you’re asking this question the first, really rather quickly out of the gate with somebody you’re working with. It could be 10 years or my whole lifetime I’ve never considered this question. These people who are listening may be in that place. So coach, so give some people some access to ways to start to engage joy in their life, based on your experience in dealing with all sorts of people.

 

[00:26:14] JBB: Let’s go to authenticity, because that’s the second point and they’re very closely related. Some people will actually say, especially if they have depression, or they have sort of lived their life, according to the – mostly to the rules of other people. They will say, “I don’t know what my joy is.” Okay. But then it’s my job, my job as a team with a client to find that out. That will be a big part of the first appointment, because I refuse to keep working if we do not have that authentic core of, this is a joy for me. I doesn’t mean you can stay there. It just means that you realize, you recognize, you uncover this is my joy, and this is why I want to wake up tomorrow. This is what makes me, you know, maybe change my job, maybe change my relationship. But not because I’m in resistance to something again, I think that is, we have talked about that before. So maybe that’s a good point to introduce it. Most therapy and coaching is about removing blockades, okay? That means, you’re in constant resistance. If you are in resistance, and we work with resistance, we will create resistance. That is something in martial arts, that is very clear, you go against something with resistance, you get resistance back. It’s the same inside your psyche, and inside your body, by the way.

 

I came across, and I actually did get a facilitator’s license from somebody called Dr. Sue Morter. She has a very, very interesting way of looking at blockades. In that she says, “If you imagine that you have your body, and then you have an energy system around you, let’s just assume that working with that system, that we have various energy bodies.” Just entertain that for a moment. What he says is that, things you struggle with and problems that you have are not blockades. There are gaps in your energy system. That leads to a completely different way of looking at my job as a therapist. Because my job as a therapist is not to help you remove, and push away and work through blockades. Because you can do that until you turn blue in your face, because we all have so many things we would like to get rid of. It’s very hard to get out of that, remove this, and then remove this and then I will find my joy. If I remove that, then I will find my joy.

 

But what she says is, we need to reconnect and we are back to integral. Reconnect, renew rekindle the flow of energy where there is a gap. So just from a science point of view, or from the way you perceive it, it’s a lot more positive. If I say to my client, “Come on, let’s reconnect that. Let’s rekindle that. Let’s wake that up. Let’s see how we can bring that together with other” and then we are at resiliency. How can we combine whichever is not able to live right now because it’s not connected to the resiliency inside of you? Have the things that make you resilient, because you’re still alive, so you must have some resiliency, otherwise, you’d be dead. How do we do that? Rather than saying, “Okay, I’ll help you remove that, and remove that and remove that.” Okay. Does that answer the question?

 

[00:30:00] RT: Yeah, it actually expands a little bit. I’m thinking, as you went through at the outset, the varying attributes or elements that highly sensitive people may have a larger dose of. I’m also thinking now as you talk in the integral part of bringing all of me together. But I live inside another fragmented, fractured world, and also has a kind of integration potential. Meaning that, I use joy since we started there. But if I’m struggling to find joy in my life, which I do from time to time, I can also get pretty self-absorbed with myself, and walk through the world full of elements of joy, and completely miss them as transitional objects to experience the external joy that could then perhaps work its way back to me. My question that I hadn’t thought about was, to what extent is the world, the physical world in which we live in also a platform and an opportunity for me to do this integrating of myself, not just in myself, but back into the world so that I’m actually more engaged there than I am self-absorbed, reading self-help, books, all that stuff, and miss the whole parade that’s going by, missed a chance to get on the dance floor and dance with the people in the world. How do you bring that? If your listener here, how do I plug back in and take advantage of the energy of the cool stuff in the world that addresses resiliency, adaptability, joy and authenticity as pathways for just a damn better life?

 

[00:31:37] JBB: Damn fun life for sure. Great question. I think you came up with an a very important word and I’m really glad you mentioned that, that is fragmented. Because that is really at the base of a lot of problems we have in the world and problems people have, because we live in an immensely, not just chaotic, but also fragmented world. It is absolutely essential to return to your court, your center to understand how to not be fragmented in yourself, so that you can actually bring to the world, whatever you have as a vision, or as an innovative idea, or as being a good mom, or being a good friend, or whatever, but being there. Because what you’re describing is not being present, not being present in your body, because you’re always somewhere else.

 

Again, Dr. Sue Morter has a wonderful word for that. She calls it the splat. Our energy is splattered all over the place. Then many times, and that always puzzled me. I know that really well, that feeling that you described. Many times, the only way we have to return to ourselves is that place of being sort of depressed in ourselves, okay? Because that in a way actually is your tempt to return to self. But unfortunately, it’s just a fragmented part of you and it’s a part of you that does not want to include your body. Then we’re back to highly sensitive people saying, “I’d rather not go into my body.” So you stay in your mind, and your mind tells you because you’re not sensing it. Because being fully alive, authentic and full of joy means that you are in your feeling body, because it’s your feeling body that has a conversation with the world, right?

 

What you describe is an attempt to return to self inside your head, excluding most of your body. That is where an integral approach says, “Okay. What about your body?” Can we reconnect sensuality, emotion, connecting to other people in a central way? That is something that in Anglo Saxon terms may be misunderstood, but what I’m sort of saying is, sensuality is this thing. I mean, maybe you do it. You just touch your hand, take your hand, and touch your hand and really feel your hand. Okay, really become aware of, is it a bit cold? Is it warm? What kind of feeling? That’s what sensuality is, okay? This is the place I would take people to, and say, “Okay. If you want to experience joy, if you want to go back to your joy, you need to go back to sensuality, you need to go to your body, because otherwise it’s a mind game, and the dullness is your body not being present.”

 

[00:34:42] RT: So I’m a cyclist. When I say cyclists, I mean, I like to ride hard, I like to ride long distances, like to go up big hills. I’ve been, I’m going to say for sure, mostly through the work and also through my wife, I’m very mindful of my body as a tuning fork. Oftentimes, doing this work, I can spend all day on Zoom calls, and on my computer. I can get to about three o’clock and say, “I have a question, I can’t sort out. I can’t even begin to make progress on this thing.” I know that if I get on my bike and leave the question on the front porch of the house and take off for an hour and a half, when I come back, before I come back, something will have happened in my head that addresses the question. It was likely in my world only going to happen if I get on the dang bike, and go ride, and get out of my brain’s way. Something frees up, something happens, and I make progress on it. Is that a little bit of what you’re talking about? About the integration of mind, body?

 

I mean, my body knows something about the answer to the question. It just needs to be put to use. It’s not working when I’m sitting in the chair. But when I ride, something clicks, and now I got something to do and I can move forward a little bit. It could be a question, it could be a feeling, it could be anything that’s stuck. I know that from my experience, that I make progress off of that issue when I move fast on the bike.

 

[00:36:16] JBB: Yeah, because that’s your way of entering your body, of reconnecting to your body in terms of energy running through the system. Then you also have, in terms of neuroscience, what you’re doing is you’re freeing up space in your brain, and your brain can sort of sift through associations that you cannot find if you focused on one thing, sort of what you’re allowing your brain to do, is because you’re taking a holiday from thinking. Your brain keeps in some way, as if, you know, it’s working in the background, like a computer that is doing things in the background and saying, “Ah! I found something in that association bubble over there.” Which if you are concentrated on just one question, you cannot find. Okay. So you’re allowing your system to branch out, basically, and working in the background. That is by degree something a bit different from what I’m saying. Though, going on your bike, in your particular case might serve a similar purpose

 

What I’m more after, and that is also very important for HSPs. If we talk about that antenna, that antenna is energetic, mostly. That energetic level, or that energetic part of you is foremost connected with your feeling body. Okay? Some people will also say you have your body, then you have your feeling body, and then you have energetic body. That’s how it’s connected, sort of with the body as a material thing. So if I work with highly sensitive people, they need to tune that antenna, they need to be able to connect with their bodies, and call their bodies if you want to for that energetic information and not to be afraid if they start sensing something. It’s a bit different by degrees. Okay? I’m not sure I’m explaining this well.

 

The first step before that is to help them to distinguish between what’s my feeling? What is it that is my authentic energy and what is the energy of other people. I think that’s one of the very first steps really, in clearing that antenna from debris and making sure that the signature of your own authentic frequency can be perceived by yourself, physically. I think maybe that’s the best way of putting it.

 

[00:38:50] RT: Okay. This is such a deep and wide exploration, and we’re barely up to our knees in the water waiting out into it in a time we have. We probably have to do a part two here down the road. In the time we have left and people listening. Again, I’ll say we’re going to put resources that you’ve sent me in advance of our conversation here in the show notes. So there’s lots of places they can dig into the comment, your recommendations, including your website, your contact information, so that will be available to them. 

 

One small piece of advice, a starting point on the journey. If you’ve awakened somebody to something in them about what you said that resonates, and they want to move, what’s a first step or two that you would recommend that they could take to get going down this road?

 

[00:39:43] JBB: I think the most important thing is start to be curious about how you’re wired differently. I’m saying curious because it points to joy. It points to being interested in what your potential gifts are. I think that is very important to step out of the mindset. I think that’s the very first thing. I know that it’s always so important for my clients when they step out of saying, I am a problem, because they have been told many times by their parents, by teachers and by friends that you are a problem. The very first step is to say, “No, that’s not true. That is not true. I’m just different and I need to stick to different rules in order to stay healthy and be in the world. But I am whole, and complete and I have wonderful gifts.” I think that is the very, very first important step. Stop beating yourself up.

 

[00:40:42] RT: Okay. As you look ahead, given the work you’re doing, the work you’ve done, both on yourself and with your clients, the creative stuff that you produce between the book, and dance and voice. For people who know this is – everybody knows this an audio version, but I’m looking at your library backdrop that you’ve got here. I know there’s a lot of resources stuff you use. When you think about your own professional and personal future, what’s ahead for you?

 

[00:41:10] JBB: Well, I’ll go back to the name of my homepage, it’s called integral Core Project. Why do I call it project? It’s a project because it’s ongoing. I keep watching the science, I keep developing it and adapting it. I’m really, in the long-term future wanting to work with a team, because I don’t know everything. There’s so many wonderful techniques and people developing stuff. I would love to have a sort of academy where we as a team help HSP people or as I said, it’s not necessarily fixed on that. But people that sort of feel different, or creatives that say, I would like to be able to really be my authentic self as an artist. That’s another very important part of my work is to free people from having to be a certain way in order to do their job, which you find in singers. I have to sound like so, and so, and I have to have that and that technique. It ruins, it ruins a lot to have to work that way.

 

In the long term future, that would be my idea to have an academy of really good team that can help people from completely integral point of view. But we’ll see about that. I’ve put a little acorns out, and we’ll see whether one of them will become a tree.

 

[00:42:37] RT: Well, I think the acorns are already starting to sprout some young trees, so I think they’re a little further along than you’re probably wanting to acknowledge, based on our conversations in the past. I want to thank you for coming, waiting knee deep into the swamp. It’s a deep place and we should probably keep going forward in it as we continue this conversation. Thank you for joining me. Anything you want to say to be finished here?

 

[00:43:01] JBB: Well, thank you very much for asking such wonderful questions and giving me the opportunity to maybe support some desperate HSPs via this call.

 

[00:43:12] RT: Perfect. Perfect. All right. Thank you very much, Jole.

 

[OUTRO]

 

[00:43:18] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to 10,000 Swamp Leaders with Rick Torseth. Please take this moment and hit subscribe to follow more leadership swamp conversations.

 

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