Eva Grosman: Centre for Democracy and Peacebuilding

EPISODE 67

 

[INTRODUCTION]

 

[00:00:05] ANNOUNCER: You are listening to 10,000 Swamp Leaders, leadership conversations that explore adapting and thriving in a complex world with Rick Torseth and guests. 

 

[INTERVIEW]

 

[00:00:20] RT: Hi, everybody. This is Rick Torseth. And this is 10,000 Swamp Leaders. This is the podcast where we have conversations with individuals who’ve made some decisions in their life and in their work to lead and try and mobilize movements and create change on difficult challenges and problems. 

 

Today, I have the pleasure to have Eva Grosman on the podcast. Eva is the CEO for the Centre for Democracy and Peace Building. No small task, Eva. You bring some pretty interesting stuff to the conversation. I’m going to list a couple things and then I’ll leave it to you to fill in the blanks that I forget. You were the Ambassador for the New York-Based Women’s Entrepreneurial Day. You’re advisor to RISE, the Global Peace Forum. I want to talk to you a little bit about your involvement in Northern Ireland, because it seems a little odd to me just because of where you come from with your cover. But you’ve been involved with the peace building work in Northern Ireland. You are a writer. You’re a publisher. You’ve been involved with producing art. You got a lot of stuff going on for the betterment of the world. Eva Grosman, welcome to the Swamp. 

 

[00:01:24] EG: Good morning. Thank you so much for having me here today. 

 

[00:01:26] RT: You’re welcome. Before we get into the questions that I prepared, what is it you want people to know about you that would help them have a calibration and orientation for the conversation that we’re going to have? 

 

[00:01:38] EG: Well, perhaps I will start with my identity and something what shaped me. I’m Polish. But I spent over 25 years living and working in the UK and Ireland with specific focus on Northern Island. It’s perhaps something what is quite relevant to this conversation. But, also, I’m full of energy. Whoever meets me and come across me always remarks on the positivity and joy, which I always say that this is my default setting. You know? This is my factory setting. And I do spend a lot of time on self-reflection and charging up this energy, so I can give more to others.

 

[00:02:18] RT: Okay. When you and I were talking a week or so ago as we were talking through a little bit about how we might have this conversation, you had told me that what you just said was your superpower. I like superpower and I love default setting. I want to come back to that though, because it strikes me that there’s probably a very solid line connection between you and how you show up in the world and the work you’ve chosen to do. But that’s my assumption. And we’ll play with that a little bit. But before we get to there, tell people about what the Centre for Democracy and Peace Building is all about. What’s the purpose of it? 

 

[00:02:51] EG: Okay. Just over 10 years ago together with some of the leading Northern Irish politicians from different walks of life and different communities, we set up a Centre for Democracy and Peace Building in order, first of all, to address some of the outstanding issues of the Irish peace process and then to share experience of Northern Ireland internationally. 

 

Ireland and Irish peace process has been a beacon of hope for so many different communities across the globe. And we thought that it would be good to try to create something what will help us to share those experiences. But, also, for instance, working with colleagues in Colombia shortly after their peace process was signed. They kept complaining that, “Wow. It takes so much time. And things are not happening.” And this was maybe three months into their peace process. I was, at the time, in Bogota. I said, “Guys Northern Ireland is 20 years into the process. And there is still a lot of work to be done and reconciliation. Those deep community and historic division take years and generations to heal.” 

 

The aim of the centre was always to basically bring hope to others, others in conflict. And our world seems so confused and tense at the moment. Ireland provides a framework where we can disagree without killing each other. We can create frameworks and ways of working through our differences. 

 

[00:04:19] RT: We can’t get too far into this. Actually, let me stop. I’m going to ask you about your superpower because I think this is a critical thing. You told me that your superpower is bringing people together, and creating energy, and getting people aligned and engaged that you have this stuff dealing with really intractable problems like this calls for people to be able to mobilize people who might be on the fence or disinclined and not get involved. Or maybe they don’t think they can do something. There’s a mobilization Factor an engagement factor to get people leaning into difficult work like this. I’m curious about how your superpower enables you to help and be impactful on these really intractable problems like the work in Northern Ireland. What is it that Eva brings that makes a difference? And what is that juice as you would describe it? 

 

[00:05:10] EG: I think it’s a combination of the positive energy. Positivity attracts positivity. Negativity attracts negativity. I think that approaching everything with hope, with a spirit of possibility, it’s probably key. But, also, our shared sense of humanity. Over the years, as I journey through different conflicts, different places across the world, what I learned and realized something, what is really basic that we all human, we all got the same aspirations. We all want a better future for the next generations. We all want freedom, and hope, and, ultimately, love. 

 

I did a little bit of work with a very good friend of mine, a colleague at Harvard. Dr. Donna Hicks who writes extensively on dignity. If we focus on human dignity and the concept of each human being being treated with care and dignity, perhaps something what defaults how I approach different projects and different conversations. Very often, when we bring together people who of very opposing views, we don’t get into conversations straight away about those very difficult issues. We’re trying to create sense of togetherness of different experiences. You mentioned earlier, I’ve been involved quite a lot in art and cultural diplomacy. Even a simple things like sharing a meal, being around one table helps. It’s just creating those very basic experiences on a human level, which perhaps bring our defenses down and we can relate to each other better. I think it’s a combination of being positive, but also approaching everybody with a sense of dignity. 

 

I remember listening to a podcast some time ago and somebody used the quote that “never allow anybody to be humiliated in your presence”. And, again, it’s something what I really took note of. That, quite often, we engage with people we dislike or disagree with. And even currently with all the elections going on and emotions flying high, and I always try to think what is my opponent right about? How does it feel to walk in somebody else’s shoes? 

 

Creating this level, high-level of tolerance obviously without being naive and without tolerating violence or bigotry at the same time. Sort of taking deep breath and engaging with others. I had lot of experiences in Northern Ireland working with hard-to-reach communities. Whole communities were labelled very negatively. They are racists. They are intolerant. They are bigoted. And then when you start meeting people on a human level and they make you cups of tea and sandwiches and engage and talk about their experiences and fear, you realize that everybody is human. And sometimes we all make mistakes or quick assumptions and so on. It’s just the way how some people protect themselves. I definitely, over the years, learned not to be so righteous. And to take a stop and to take a breath and listen. Listen better. 

 

[00:08:41] RT: This podcast has two focuses. One is to be a place for people like you to tell your stories and what you’ve learned about using yourself to lead. And that’s what we’re doing now. The other purpose is the idea, the premise that there could be people listening to this conversation who would pick up a few things along the way from you and your journey and your lessons learned if they could can integrate into how they use themselves to lead. 

 

I’m curious, with that second context in mind, where did this start for you? When did you sensed that you were called into this kind of work versus something that would be more easily identifiable as a profession? This is not an easy place to live and make a living. Where did it start for Eva? 

 

[00:09:26] EG: Well, it wasn’t a straightforward journey. Initially, I started my career in the private sector. But I always felt that I wanted to do something more and something more purposeful. And the universe led me from one thing to another. I ended up in Northern Ireland perhaps initially without fully realizing the history and the divisions which existed in the community. Still few years after the Good Friday Agreement. I was a bit of an insider-outsider because I’m Polish. I was relatively new among the new communities. People normally would leave Northern Ireland rather than come to Northern Ireland. It changed over the last few years dramatically. And the society became much more diverse. But whenever I started my career there, it wasn’t as diverse. 

 

And I remember one day, I was still working in the private sector, and I was driving on one of the main streets of Belfast and I had the radio on. And during the interview – and I think it was 1:00 news lunchtime news, I heard reports of a number of Polish workers being attacked in South Belfast. And one guy who ended up in Royal Victoria Hospital with serious injuries. It was a big problem. And there was appeal by the police service of Northern Ireland. 

 

And what I did? Without any experience, I picked up a phone and I called at the specific police station. I said, “Listen. I’m polish. I’ve been living here for a few years. I’ve got good understanding of the Polish community as well as the local communities. If you can use me or if I can be of any help, I’m here to your service.” And with fairness, the enthusiast on the other end of the local inspector say, “Actually, we are hosting an event, a gathering in a local community center. We want to mediate between the local committee and the Polish committee. And we want to find out what is going on.” 

 

I arrived a couple of days later in the community center in South Belfast. Very working class. Loyalist area. And there were like local residents in one room. Police and some other officials in the other room. Lots of tensions. Lots of confusion. And we started talking. What we find out, first of all, that there were number of Polish workers being moved into an area. There was a lot of antisocial behavior. 

 

Actually, the Polish workers were paid below minimal wage, because it was just at the beginning of – after Poland joined EU. We recognized that there were a lot of issues around housing. There were issues around workers’ abuse. There were issues about behavior. At the same time, the local community, instead of trying to find a better solution, reached out to probably local paramilitary groups which then attacked those houses. And it ended up quite unpleasant. 

 

But what I tried to do, I tried to first of all resolve the issues around those polish workers on the other hand to listen attentively to the community. And we were invited to one of the community days. And I took group of other Polish people. And we drank lots of tea and ate sandwiches and sausage rolls. And we were shown around the local community. And we provided the opportunity for the locals to have a sense of pride and somebody for once listen. I didn’t go there with sort of labeling them as racist. And we tried to listen. 

 

And I’ve got a really funny story which I always think of. Pols are obviously Catholic. And our society is quite probably 97% of Polish people are Catholic. We are walking into a Protestant loyalist community. The lady, older lady who welcomed us had the T-shirt with John Paul II and a very vulgar slogan “F the Pope.” Okay? This was the way they tried to welcome us and to show their territory and sort of – but I smiled and I didn’t say anything. I just said very gently to my Polish colleagues and friends, I said, “Don’t take any notice of this T-shirt. Just let’s try to engage.” And we had an amazing afternoon. We developed friendship. We talked. We laughed. And two weeks later, this local inspector called me and said, “Eva, I don’t know what you did. But the local community is putting Polish classes in their community center they going to organize picnic for the Polish families. And they’re going to reach out to each other.” 

 

And then a friend of mine started another big program looking at our shared history and the contribution of Polish soldiers during the Second World War and Battle of Britain. Something what was closed again to this specific community. And since then, they painted a mural for the Polish pilots, their neighborhood. And they engaged. 

 

Simple example at the very beginning of my work in this area demonstrated that it’s just giving people benefit of doubt. Engaging in – being patient. Engaging in listening. And, again, going back to this concept of dignity, treating people with respect. And, hopefully, this lady took away the T-shirt and didn’t have a need to wear it again.

 

[00:15:07] RT: I have to take you back there a little bit. Because, again, for listeners wondering. So, you create this opportunity to meet. You go there. You meet. You begin to be with them. What did you do to create a space in that moment that began to actually be experienced by the people in Northern Ireland and the Polish people where there was some, to use your word, possibility and hope that there is a way forward? What did you actually – how did you create that space so that could happen? 

 

[00:15:42] EG: One of my favorite quotes ever, it’s Amilia Earhart, “The most effective way to do it is to do it.” Okay? I’m definitely a doer. I make things happen. And often I’m quite fearless. And there are consequences obviously of sort of taking the risk or pushing the boundaries. But it’s just about simple act of meeting, of being together, or proposing of you know the conversation. It’s really very, very simple. Seems sometimes complicated. 

 

Just last week, I engaged with somebody. They said, “Oh, we have to organize something. But we need to go to consultation first.” I was like, “No. No. No. There won’t be a consultation. I’m not going to talk about something.” Like, “Let’s just do it.” The act of me being in the car and feeling motivated to pick up a phone and to call somebody, it takes a certain level of courage. 

 

And, also, one needs to realize, there are consequences of our actions. If I’m making this phone call then, I will have to follow up on it. I cannot make this phone call, turn up to one meeting and leave it. There needs to be a sense of commitment. And perhaps I’m much better now of not over-committing and not taking too much on my plate. But I still will have a tendency to juggle quite a few things at the same time, which I utterly enjoy. 

 

Sort of realizing that if we make this act, that being a change maker of wanting to do something has consequences. And we have to be persistent. And it will require certain levels of determination and resilience that things will go well and things will not go well. And we have to keep pushing through. All those changes in the community and relationship building takes weeks and months and sometimes years. 

 

I know that I now can pick up a phone and reach out to anybody and resolve issues. But those are relationships and the social capital which is – and trust which is built over the years. And it’s built because you turn up and you are there. Whenever the local community reached out to me and said, “We’ve got this community event.” From memory, it was a weekend. I had to give up my weekend to be there. Change my plan because this was something that was important to them. And you are just there. It’s turning up. 

 

[00:18:26] RT: We should say too that the Centre for Democracy and Peace Building is not a huge organization in terms of numbers of people. The work you do I suspect is infiltrating larger organizations and getting them to sort of function the way you’re talking about and spreading it through their groups of people, their communities, etc.

 

[00:18:47] EG: Yeah. The centre is quite uh small. We are small and agile. And sometimes if you look at our annual report, it’s difficult to believe that there are not dozens of people working on projects. But it’s the ability to connect people to others and ability to connect people to themselves. To sort of keep realizing their potential and everybody holds so much agency and power. 

 

One of our flagship programs is the fellowship for political business and civic leaders. We take 24 fellows a year through a program. Six to seven-month program. 12 of those fellows are from political parties across political spectrum. 12 from the wider civic society with a heavy engagement from the corporate sector and with support from the corporate sector. 

 

And those 24 people, we provide lots of opportunities for them to connect with each other. But also to develop their skills and capacity. We’ve got two residentials. One in Oxford one in Dublin. We’ve got lots of sessions when they work together on policy issues, on issues they care about. And over the last – we are currently recruiting for a cohort. 

 

Looking at the 72 fellows who went through our programs and the ripple effect and the energy which is released as a result and those connections, it’s in a bigger scale, scale of the world or even scale of Northern Ireland. It’s just one or two pieces of a bigger puzzle. But it gives me such a joy and such a satisfaction to see how they grow, how they’re developed, how the program provided a spark for them to do something bigger or maybe to change the way of thinking. 

 

Even when I listen to the stories of some of the politicians from a very opposing camps, how, during the connection, during the program, they now look at each other in a very different way. How perhaps civil servants and others in the system engage on a different level. Because they know they can pick up the phone and it’s not an enemy which is on the other side, but a colleague or another human being. And on the end of the day, at the core of the program is everybody’s passion for Northern Ireland, which is more prosperous and more peaceful. It’s creating this shared sense of purpose and hope for something better. And when people see that it’s possible to change things or it’s possible to have different approach and it is possible just to create this positivity. 

 

[00:21:35] RT: We’re sitting here a week, I guess, since the European Parliament elections. And there’s definitely seems to me, as an outsider, some shift in the wind at least. How do you read this? And when you look at it – you’ve lived here your whole life. You’ve watched a lot of this stuff. You’ve been involved with it. What’s happening here that’s producing this drift and shift that has lots of countries concerned from your perspective? 

 

[00:22:04] RT: Well, there is – definitely, it feels we live in a very, very challenging times. And there is a lot of discontent in the world which causes perhaps the rise of populism and anger. Societies are – the gap between the rich and the poor is widening. We can see how, across the UK, the middle classes are diminishing. It’s no longer the case that your hard work will help you to better yourself or the future generations and so on. Therefore, there is a lot of tension. And we are definitely interregnum. In a place where humanity need to reset itself and perhaps come back to some values. 

 

The younger generations perhaps don’t – I realized that, actually, last year when I was working with some young people from Belarus, living in exile. And I started talking about 89 and those amazing changes across Europe. And a lot of hope. Peace process in South Africa. And then, obviously, aspirations of Good Friday Agreement. And then I suddenly realized that half of the cohort wasn’t even born. Never mind what our grandparents and parents remember in regards to the Second World War and impact and the atrocity of it. And how they desire peace and stability for the future generations. 

 

Current generations don’t even remember those big shifts in Europe with the fall of the Berlin Wall and solidarity movement in Poland and our transition into Democratic state. I think, on one hand, it’s very important to keep reminding ourselves of everything what we achieved and never to take it for granted. 

 

A couple of weeks ago, I met with a friend of mine. Another Harvard student who is Israeli. A young, driven, ambitious girl. And we started talking about conflict in the Middle East and what is happening in America. What is happening in Gaza? On one hand, there was a lot of despair. At the same time, I asked her because she’s in her late teens, I think. Or maybe early 20s. I said, “But what do you think?” She says, “No. I think the world is full of hope. I think we can get it started.” 

 

It gave me a little bit of joy to see that it’s not all as gloomy. That there are things and there is progress. And, still, when necessary, people pull together and mobilize and so on. It’s definitely worrying and it’s dangerous. And I know that there are elections coming up in the US. Well, there are elections coming up in Britain. The recent years of COVID and Brexit really unsettled whole communities. Migration crisis. Deep division in the society. The levels of poverty. I think it’s cyclical. We are in interregnum. And we have to be mindful of it. And we have to sort of focus again on those very basic – our shared sense of humanity. Kindness of what we can do and the agency we’ve got every day with not only as being leaders, or running big organizations, or corporations, or being politicians. But our everyday actions really matter. A gentle smile. Courtesy. Kindness. Stranger. It’s how we can create those movements and heal the world a little bit. Because it’s so easy to create the tension.

 

[00:25:53] RT: I’m American I’m not living in America right now as you know. I’m in Ireland as we speak. And I’m witnessing my own country going through a phase I’ve never experienced before. And I can see in our longer history, we’ve traveled this road in varying forms in the past. This is not necessarily all brand-new stuff. For the people who are listening and they have concerns about this, and you’ve touched on this a little bit with your work in Northern Ireland, I think in conversations I have with my friends there’s this sense of either kind of sleepwalking through this and suddenly being awakened and trying to understand how it got this far before they really became concerned about it. But, also, a sense of kind of hopelessness. What can I do? The politicians aren’t really reacting to this in any effective way. What’s my move other than voting? 

 

I know you spoke about this a little bit when you picked up the phone and you called the police and then you begin to get these people together. But for people listening who are living in all parts of the world where engagement and movement are really essential and thinking, believing what can I do? I’m just me. But you’ve seen a lot of people who are just me do stuff and change things. What counsel do you have for these people who have that sort of orientation and yet still haven’t given up hope but are trying to figure out what could I actually do to make a difference? 

 

[00:27:23] EG: I think it’s something what I said about everyday actions and ability to listen. I remember talking to Senator George Mitchell who was one of the brokers of Good Friday Agreement who was instrumental in bringing peace in Northern Ireland. And I was dropping him out to the airport and I was longing for some words of wisdom. And I’ve got this opportunity away from the crowds and the cameras and everything else to have this conversation. And I asked him what he define as the most important element of it all. And he said, “Listen.” And the simple act of listening. 

 

And I would say that this needs to happen on two levels. Of listening to ourselves and spending time on self-reflection and self-knowledge, because it’s very easy. We are part, all part of the society. It’s not us and them and it’s me and it’s somebody’s else fault. We all contribute equally to what’s good and what’s bad in this world. 

 

I think, again, over the years, allocating time to self-reflection and saying what are my actions? And what do I – am I part of the solution or am I part of the problem? And this literally applies to everybody and to ourselves. And then listening to our neighbors and our families and those who are close to us and those sometimes we dislike and disagree with. What are those who are different than me are right about? 

 

I had a lot of you know soul searching to do around the Brexit vote. I’m Polish. I feel very much European. I feel immensely proud of my Polish and European identity. And whenever Brexit happened, I felt heartbroken. It was like rejection or othering. And then I started trying to engage and listen more and see why it happened. What are the reasons? What are people fearful about? And trying to understand why there was so much anger and resentment. 

 

And if you visit communities in Norfolk England and see the levels of poverty and how hard it is, you sort of start understanding that, through sort of some propaganda, how they felt and how they try to look for solutions of creating some change. I think that we cannot underestimate the agency we’ve got. But as I said, it’s constantly asking ourselves, “Are we part of the solution or part of the problem?” 

 

[00:30:14] RT: I love – you may know Ron Heifetz at Harvard. He teaches a leadership program there. It’s been around for a long time. Adaptive leadership. He likes to provoke his students with a version of your question, which is what’s my contribution to the mess I’m trying to solve? It’s pretty much the same question. 

 

[00:30:33] EG: But, Rick, whenever I work on so many different projects in Northern Ireland – and there are criteria you have to follow and boxes you have to tick. And perhaps you’ve got one idea. But because of either funding restraints – or you do something else. And then I sat and thought, “No. I’m becoming part of something what is actually not creating a positive change, but re-indorsing some divisions or re-indorsing some patterns.” 

 

And, again, it takes incredible courage. And you have to be fearless to stand up to, I don’t know, government department saying like, “No. No. I am not doing it this way.” It’s not easy. But, again, it was the fact that you stop, you think, you examine. What are your motivations? What are you trying to do? And then takes courage. And, precisely, because our centre is so small and agile, sometimes I can make those calls. But with bigger organizations and bigger structures, it’s much harder. And I think this is partly what is causing so much havoc right now. Because we’ve got a lot of very bureaucratic massive institutions which finding it very difficult to reset. 

 

Here in Britain, the whole conversations around NHS, the health service. In Ireland when you are now – massive issues around housing. There are so many – all policy issues around immigration and what’s fair. Where is the balance? And so on. Those are very, very difficult and complex issues to be addressed, which become overwhelming. And then people try to simplify it and it causes populism. And there are no quick solutions. 

 

Another thing which I learned over the years, we can’t fix those things overnight. It takes months. I was talking to somebody last week about them. There is a completely unrelated problem. But there is a big issue about Lough Neagh and pollution. It’s an inland lake within Northern Ireland which is now causing pollution in Southern Ireland and the waterways. It will take 20 years to resolve it to bring the ecosystem back. 20 years. 

 

It’s like my conversations with the colleagues in Colombia who three or four months into the peace process were like, “You know, is it all fixed?” I’m like, “No. No. No.” Look at Northern Ireland 26 years now since Good Friday Agreement, there are still issues which are unresolved and which are causing a lot of pain, and discontent, and so on. Unfortunately, on one hand, we live in the society where we want everything quick. We want it now. On the other hand, it is not possible. 

 

Even looking at my own journey and as I develop as a person and as a leader, when you’re 20 or 30 you think you know it all. And then, suddenly, you realize that only passage of time. No course, or degree, or a book you read will bring the wisdom, which is the least experience. 

 

[00:33:53] RT: There’s so much there. I want to go back to one piece. And you mentioned this a few times. But thinking about people listening and this thing about courage. That stops a lot of people. Their narrative, their story they tell themselves is I don’t have that. Something keeps me from going. What do you know about for yourself about those moments that come up that call for courage to move forward? What do you know about what you may need to do and muster within yourselves to decide I’m going? 

 

I would suspect there are times when you met this is not the time to be courageous. This doesn’t make sense. But in those moments when you think it is and you go, what are you doing in those moments in your head, in your body, in your heart? 

 

[00:34:44] EG: I think that’s something very interesting about heart. It’s educating heart and creating the space in your heart, the value system which will take you through those more difficult moments. Moments when the courage is required. Constantly topping it up. Taking time to reflect. Going for a long walk. Resting. Being in nature. Doing those things when you almost like fuel up in order – when this courage is required from you, it’s there. 

 

It’s also discipline. It’s knowing that when you commit, you will have to go. Developing the resilience. But you cannot run on empty vessels. Creating those spaces where things are going well. It’s almost like with sportsmen, you train. You just don’t win a medal. You put a lot of effort and training into it. 

 

I suppose when I talk about courage and fearlessness and so on, you develop relationships over weeks and months and years with people which you will be able to rely on or call upon maybe sometimes down the line. When I need to resolve an issue, or there is a hate crime, or tension, or I’m asked to intervene somewhere, I will have relationships which go back. Because I delivered and I followed up on something years ago. 

 

Well, the courage and the moment, sometimes the motivation, sometimes it just feels right that you have to do something at the same time. It’s a result of months if not years of building a grant for it. It’s the discipline. 

 

[00:36:38] RT: A grant for courage. I love that. That’s brilliant. And you juxtaposed that a few minutes ago with discipline and patience. The people in Colombia versus the length of time they think to take it. How do you sustain yourself? But, equally, how do you sustain the other people who are going on this journey when we’re sort of wired to get things quick and it’s is going to take longer than quick? What do you know about how you keep people moving for the length of time plus the cultural bias that says things should happen faster? 

 

[00:37:18] EG: I think it’s about creating those short-time wings and celebrations of every step, every few steps when you achieved something. On one hand, we’ve got aspiration of achieving something great. And we want world peace. We want everything. But it’s a sort of as you are on the destination towards your ultimate goal, creating those stops in between where you can feel the sense of achievement that the progress has been done. And this is, again, going back to the importance of self-reflection. Importance of taking a breath. Stopping. Acknowledging. Because only then – it’s like embarking on a long journey. 

 

I remember walking a few years ago on Santiago de Compostela. You just don’t do it in one go. You wake up in the morning. You stop mid-morning for a coffee break or then you’ll have a lovely lunch and a glass of wine and eat some octopus and keep going. And before you know, you maybe walked 30, 35 kilometers. And it’s both hardships, but also those little rewards in between. 

 

It is important that we take care of ourselves and those around us and create moments of celebration, of togetherness, of coming together. And when the times are hard as well, acknowledging it and creating a little bit of breathing space. 

 

[00:38:49] RT: Okay. As we sort of move towards our close here, what is it I haven’t asked you that I should be asking you about your work and what you know?

 

[00:39:01] EG: Not an easy question. But I think during our previous conversation we talked about the fact that sometimes I don’t even have time to sit and reflect on my bigger journey and all the lessons. And sometimes it’s frustrating because I’m a doer and I just get stuff done. But perhaps creating more sustainability and legacy. There should be moments like this to have opportunities to share a little bit of my experience, energy. 

 

And somebody emailed me last week, one of our fellows, with a note because I helped them with something. And they said, “You are a real enabler.” And it put a smile on my face that, ultimately, it’s such a joy when through our work or commitment we can allow others to be the best version of themselves or provide opportunities for others who in many, many cases they will then provide opportunity for those around them. I think at the core of what drives me is the ability to create those constant ripple effects of letting others to things and they can pass on. And when we can create this lasting change.

 

[00:40:25] RT: Okay. Last question then. Maybe the last question. You might say something that causes another question. What’s ahead for you? 

 

[00:40:32] EG: What’s ahead of me? 

 

[00:40:33] RT: Yeah. What do you want to do? 

 

[00:40:34] EG: I think I’m in a very good place. I really enjoy what I do. As I said, I think that now I feel more and more about legacy and how package and ensure what we’re creating can be amplified. Like the fellowship program, can we replicate it in other parts of the world? How can we create more opportunities for more people? How can we communicate what we do better? 

 

But at the same time, I’m quite content the path I am on. I probably never felt as content as I am feeling now that even that we’re surrounded by chaos and a lot of tension, the world at the same time during times like that, something new emerges. And new and exciting. And we need reset. And I hope that I am part of the reset, the big reset but on a positive side.

 

[00:41:27] RT: I think there’s little doubt that shall be the case. Eva Grosman, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and telling us or reminding us of the value of hope coupled with courage and action. Thank you so much.

 

[00:41:40] EG: Thank you, Rick. And an absolute pleasure. Thank you. 

 

[OUTRO]

 

[00:41:45] ANNOUNCER: Tou thank you for listening to 10,000 Swamp Leaders with Rick Torseth. Please take this moment and hit subscribe to follow more leadership swamp conversations.

 

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